Complete Transcript:

Note that this is an unedited machine transcription, so there will be boo boo’s.  I offer this for those that prefer to read rather than listen to the show.  

 

Kit Parks: (00:00)

A quick glance through Instagram and you can see our public lands plus the even incredibly remote and inaccessible landscapes sound the most fragile and beautiful environments in the world are getting really crowded and I get it. You want to see them? I want to see them. They’re special for a reason, so what can we do to make these lands and make these environments and our impact on them more sustainable? Today we’re going to look at our impact, both positive and negative on the people and the landscapes and the places that we visit. Welcome to the adventure travel show podcast. I’m your host kit parks. This is a companion podcast to the Active Travel Adventures podcast. On this podcast you’re going to learn about the how tos of adventure travel. Whereas on ATA, you’re going to learn about destinations. I encourage you to subscribe to both today. I’ve got a great guest, Lauren Chu from the Ridge Line report whose specialty is talking about sustainability and safety in the wild and it’s a great interview. I can’t wait to share it with you. So at that further ado, let’s get on with our interview with Lauren. 

 

Kit Parks: (01:19)

I was recently in Portland, Maine for the Women In Travel Summit and was lucky enough to meet Lauren at the opening night party. Lauren has an extensive background on wilderness safety and sustainability plus guiding in the wilderness. Welcome to the show. Lauren. Lauren Chu: Thank you so much. I’m super happy to be here. You’ve got a great background. And could you just tell us a little bit… I got a little bit about it from you that night and also on the website, but can you give us a little bit of a brief summary of, of who you are and the things that you’ve learned and some of your training and background? 

 

Lauren Chu: (01:49)

Yeah, absolutely.  So I went to school for engineering. So I studied engineering and after a few years in the workplace, I kind of found that my desire to be outside and kind of be connected to nature was far stronger than my desire to be working with machinery. And so for the past few years I’ve been working as a guide and as a kind of facilitator for programs around the world. So I work leading groups on hiking trips and I also work for an organization that does educational travel for students. 

 

Kit Parks: (02:21)

Cool. Cool. Now adventure travel has become huge when people even my age are doing it. So can you tell us a little bit about the rise of adventure travel on? Where’s the buzz there? What’s making it so cool these days to go on adventure travel? 

 

Lauren Chu: (02:33)

Yeah, it’s a great point. And I think really what I’ve come to realize is that adventure travel is almost synonymous with travel in a lot of ways these days. I mean, everybody’s looking for a hike or an off the beaten path experience or some way to reconnect with nature. And I think there’s a few things that have contributed to this. I mean, the rise of adventure travel in pop culture has a lot to do with celebrities and celebrity status. I mean you think of Red Bull and the way that they’ve just elevated extreme sports athletes to kind of be these pop culture icons. And then you know, that fantastic movie, Wild with Reese Witherspoon came out of this one woman’s journey along the Pacific Crest Trail and it kind of just skyrocketed her to start them as well. And it brought through hiking and that kind of backcountry experience to light again. And then even environmentalism has always been important in the past few decades. But recently it’s become really mainstream. I mean, Nat Geo- National Geographic-  just won an Oscar for their work on Free Solo, which is incredible. But again, it’s just created this idea that adventure travel is the norm and it’s something that we should all be seeking. 

 

Kit Parks: (03:38)

Is Adventure travel harmful to some of the places that we go to in any way? Let’s talk first… Let’s break it into two sections. Let’s talk about the impact on the local culture and the people. And then let’s talk about the impact on the environment. So can you address, how does all of a sudden this mass of humanity, now we’re invading some of these really remote places now in mass, how is that affecting the local people for good and for bad? 

 

Lauren Chu: (04:03)

Right. I think it’s a fantastic question because when we think of these remote places and traveling to them, I mean these are the world’s most fragile environments, both socially and environmentally. There’s significant impacts that that can be had. There’s one example I think of and Mount Kinabalu is the highest peak in Malaysia. And there was a group of backpackers a few years ago who decided they wanted to climb it and for some reason felt compelled to take photographs naked on top of this mountain. And you know, despite multiple warnings from their local guides to not do that, they took off their clothes. They had a picture taken, it was this harmless act of fun-ness or horseplay or whatever it was. And they actually ended up being jailed because of the disrespect that they had done to what was a very sacred place for the local people. And so while well intentioned and while I think it’s important that we really get out there and take those risks, you know, there’s a lot of considerations to be had for the people who live the adventure every day of their lives. 

 

Kit Parks: (05:04)

To us it is an adventure to them, like I think I heard you say that their reality, that’s their everyday life. 

 

Lauren Chu: (05:07)

That’s right. I mean we think about going on, you know, this Himalayan adventure or this Amazonian cruise through this epic wild landscape and for the people who live there and who have lived there for ever, it’s the reality and it’s something that they’ve had to grapple with is, is this big influx of people who want to see this adventure or to live this adventure and to ask somebody to share their everyday life kind of like a show or, or as a performance,  is really tricky and there’s a lot of education that I think we can do as travelers ahead of time to respect those people in that culture.  Kit: Give us some examples.

 

Lauren Chu: (05:57)  

So, I mean I think a lot of it is really just doing your research and it’s hard and it takes time. But I think we have the responsibility to do it.  And it could be as simple as understanding the history of the people. So who lives there, you know, how long have they been there is, are there any sort of cultural norms or tendencies I might want to be aware of and then doing your research on, on a provider. So who is going to be taking you there and what is their relationship with the land? Do they live there? Are they from there? Do they understand the impacts that these activities have? And again, it does take a bit of effort, but it is entirely worth it. And I think it’s fantastic that more people are looking for these kinds of ethical experiences. 

 

Kit Parks:  (06:38)  That reminds me of the story. When I was in Bangkok, I was on a boat and one of the floating markets and what a floating market is, is all the vendors are on boats too.  And they’re just kind of going through the alleyways in the canals and the waterways trying to sell their wares. And I always try to ask permission before I take a closeup photo of anybody anyway.  But just to be on the safe side, this one woman marketing, she had a couple of different things in the boat… I can’t remember what they were though, but what you saw that we were tourists put her finger in front of our face and shook her head like, “No, no, no. I am not a tourist attraction!”  And I thought that was very interesting. I never forgot her. Of course, obviously I honored her request. I mean we’ve got to remember that there are everyday people just like us, they just have a different culture than what we’re used to, which makes them fascinating to us. However, you still need to build a relationship before you just go snap in people’s photos. 

 

Lauren Chu: (07:20)

Absolutely. And there’s so much opportunity act for learning when we meet with these people who are so different from us. And instead of seeing them as canvas spectacle or an object to view or to enjoy, it’s actually what can we learn from them and what are they doing that could be interesting or impactful for us. And a lot of times they’re curious about us as we are about them. Absolutely. Particularly if they don’t see a lot of tourists. And you know, there’s, there’s entire industries that have been created around big adventure travel destination. So Mount Kilimanjaro is a great example that I always kind of come back to. And I’ve had the chance to lead a group up to Mount Kilimanjaro and for me, the adventure wasn’t so much in the hike, which was beautiful, don’t get me wrong, but the adventure was in connecting with the people of Tanzania and understanding the vast, like the, the different tribes and cultures and diversity of culture that exists in Tanzania. 

 

Lauren Chu: (08:20)

And it’s, it’s a really great learning tool. 

Kit Parks:  And Kilimanjaro and Nepal makes me think of something else to, depending on the guides that we hire, we’re either helping or hurting the local people because there’s great companies that properly pay and train their people and there’s others that exploit the people and just take the money and actually take it out of the countries. So I think one of our ethical challenges is to look into the companies that we’re doing business with to make sure that they’re doing things in the manner that you want them to be doing things and choose your tour companies accordingly. 

 

Lauren Chu:  Yeah, absolutely. And you, it’s so important to kind of do our research and understand where that money’s going, but also not to take away the agency that they have in making it a business because it’s such important money for so many communities around the world. 

 

Lauren Chu: (09:06)

Right? Tourism is huge. And so instead of saying, we shouldn’t contribute to this problem, we shouldn’t climb Kilimanjaro, we shouldn’t even try. It’s actually how can we do it in a way that is mutually beneficial and contributes to a sustainable place that we can continue to visit and climb. And see for years to come. And what do we look for? 

 

Kit Parks:  How do we, I mean, what do I even look for when I go to a website or try to check out an outfitter? 

 

Lauren:  Yeah, it’s an honestly a fantastic question and it’s one that I continue to grapple with, but I think the best thing you can do is actually try to get in contact with somebody who works there. And yes, you can say, you know, they’ll tell you whatever you want to hear, Yada, Yada, Yada. But if you ask questions around how do they pay their employees, how do they hold themselves accountable? 

 

Lauren Chu: (09:54)

What are their policies around social justice or environmental justice or, what measures do they take to ensure that the way that they operate is just and fair to their employees? And another thing that I’ve actually liked doing is reaching out to somebody who’s gone on a tour with one of these companies before. So, you know, on TripAdvisor, on any kind of review site, it’s a great place to find up to date information. And so I’ll, I’ll comment on one of the most recent reviews and say, hey, would you mind if I reached out to you? I just have a couple of questions to ask about how you found their policies around x, Y, Z to be, or whatever it is. And, and those are a few things that I, I typically do just to kind of do some surface level of vetting of the companies that on balance. 

 

Kit Parks:  Do you think that this explosion of travel into some of these remote areas is as far as the people are in the culture go a benefit or a detraction or is it a balance or, or where do you stand on that? 

 

Lauren Chu: (10:42)  

Yeah, I think I am a huge proponent of adventure travel. I think it is fantastic and I think we should continue to encourage people to take risks and to go outside their comfort zone because that’s where the learning happens. I mean, that’s, to me the most exciting part of travel is when you learn something, you see something differently or you understand something in a, in a slightly different way. And so I think it is really important to continue to seek these experiences. But I think it’s important to recognize that these experiences don’t come free, right? There is a cost and will this ever be sustainable? It’s a tough word to use, right? Sustainability is more of an ideal than a reality. But I think the more that we have conversations around principles surrounding leaving no trace or ethical travel or who does this benefit, we can certainly work towards a kind of a more humble and curiousype of traveler. 

 

Kit Parks: (11:54)

And at least in my experience, it seems that the people are grateful for the tourist dollars that are coming into their local towns and villages. 

 

Lauren Chu: (11:57)

That’s exactly it, right? I mean they are business people, they are smart entrepreneurial workers who are looking to be involved with this global economy and we should certainly be able to take part of that as well. 

 

Kit Parks: (12:11)

So let’s switch gears then and let’s talk about adventure travel and its impact on the environment. You had mentioned earlier that we’re talking about going into some of the world’s most fragile areas. I remember, I can’t remember where it was, it might have been in Glacier National Park. We were up pretty high and the only vegetation was some little Mossy Lichen on the rocks. And I think they said that it took decades for that Lichen to grow. So when you left the trail and got off trail, you’re actually harming decades worth of growth. Can you talk a little bit about this invasion of the people trying to seek out all these cool environments, which like, you know, I’m all gung ho like you, and want to adventure travel, but I do see that as many people get out there that we’re not necessarily treating the land with as much respect as we should be. 

 

Lauren Chu: (13:01)

That’s it. That’s a great point. And it’s something that is super, super important to recognize. These are the world’s most fragile environments and lichen like that, you know, similar to Kilimanjaro, it grows at a rate of a few millimeters per year. Right? So, you know, this is some of the most resilient but yet fragile at the same time, vegetation and life. And I think there’s kind of this disconnect between our impact and the reality. So you can think that, oh, there’s just so much space out here. It’s just so vast. It’s so big and it’s so beautiful. Like my walking off the trail for a short time or me climbing up this rock to see this different viewpoint isn’t gonna make a big difference. But in reality, the more people that do that over time, the bigger the effect that there is. And so, you know, leaving no trace is exactly that. 

 

Lauren Chu: (13:55)

It’s leaving no trace of you being there. But more than that, to me it’s, it’s, it’s the golden rule. Leave a place the way that you would like to find it. Right? And so it means staying on the trail, it means camping in designated areas. It means not making huge bonfires. It obviously means not leaving trash. And I think the more that we can instill that in people as the norm and not as something that we seek to, that we wish to do, but instead something that we have to do and are supposed to do, the better off we’ll be. 

 

Kit Parks: (14:29)

Yeah. I remember when I was doing some sections of the Appalachian trail, I would get so irritated with some of the hikers out there because nobody wants to carry weight. You’re backpacking. So I get it. We all want to minimize the weight, but when they’d leave their garbage or burn unburnable garbage in the fire areas, I’m like, they came out here for the beauty and then they’re marring it for the rest of us and that would really get in my craw a little bit. 

 

Lauren Chu: (14:53)

No kidding. Yeah, I’m the same way. And you know, it’s tough for, I’m not gonna say,  “Don’t make fires”, and I’m not going to say that you can’t go to these places, but, but there’s certainly a level of responsibility that I think we have to take for each other. Really. It’s just, it’s looking out for each other. 

 

Kit Parks: (15:08)

So let’s, let’s talk about, so of course we want to stay on the trails and obviously you don’t want to cut any live vegetation, trees or branches to make your fire. Can you just identify, leave no trace, I know you talked a little bit about that, but in a nutshell, what does that mean for people when they say when it regards to human waste and toilet paper and their trash? 

 

Lauren Chu: (15:28)

Sure. Toilet paper is kind of one of my favorite things to talk about in a funny way. So leave no trace principles are kind of these ethics, it’s a kind of a code of ethics that people who travel outdoors and visit these backcountry areas should abide by. And again, the idea is that you leave a place the way that you found it in the way that you would like to find it. And so it means taking only pictures and not leaving garbage. And toilet paper is a, is an interesting one. It seems so light and so fragile and so many people just kind of leave it on the trail. I mean, the number of times that I’ve come across toilet paper on the trail is, it’s just, I can’t even, can’t even articulate how frustrated it makes me. 

 

Lauren Chu: (16:14)

Toilet paper takes, I think around three years to biodegrade and that’s in the most fertile environment, like in dirt or in like a forest full of mulch and full of leaves and wet leaves.  But you should really never be leaving toilet paper on the ground. You pack it in and you pack it out. So you just bring a little Baggie with you and you do your thing and then you put the toilet paper in the bag and carry it with you. It shouldn’t be buried, it shouldn’t be left. And if you don’t want to see it on the trail, certainly don’t leave it for other people to find. 

 

Kit Parks: (16:48)

Right. And actually when people say, “Oh, I bury it”.  But actually animals, will go dig that up too.

 

Lauren Chu:  Exactly. Exactly. 

 

Kit Parks:  And speaking of like the biodegrading, one of the most irritating times I was up, I was in the little town of Cassis, France and there was this huge, huge cliff bluff that was just like a straight up hike to get up there. And I’m up there first thing in the morning, I got the whole thing to myself. It’s absolutely beautiful except for all along the path was toilet paper because it hardly ever rains. So it doesn’t decompose and it was disgusting. 

 

Lauren Chu:  That’s right. So anyway, I always tell people, bring a baggy, label it trash so you don’t get confused.  And then when you get to town you can dump it and use a fresh bag if you want. You never have to go in it, you know? So it’s not a big deal. 

 

Kit Parks:  Yeah, there’s even some places now when I interviewed Mike of about rafting the Colorado River, they had to brown bag… they even had to pack out all of their human waste. That’s exactly it. Yeah. And so is that common in many places or is that just in some of the really fragile places are parks? 

 

Lauren Chu: (17:50)

I would say that’s kind of the but is it practice everywhere? No, and you know, in, in Canada or in Ontario anyway, in the places that I spend time, can you tripping in the summer there’s what we call “Treasure Boxes”.  And so they’re little… they’re set up by, you know, Ontario parks or parks Canada and they’re boxes for you to use as a toilet. And so this is kind of their way of focusing on only putting human waste in one place. And so please use those treasure boxes. They’re there for a reason. 

 

Kit Parks:  I’d never heard about that before. That’s new news. Cool. Cool. So overall do you have some overall thoughts about our impact in the world doing adventure travel? 

 

Lauren Chu: (18:47)

Again, I think I just want to kind of balance the idea of risk because taking risk is fantastic. Like I said, I think we should keep doing it. I think everybody needs to push themselves out of their comfort zone and seek these experiences in nature that for, for the past few decades, we’ve kind of forgotten in a lot of ways.  So that’s one side of it. And then, and my, I guess my final thoughts are the more conversations we have and the more we hold each other accountable when it comes to safety and sustainability and adventure travel, we can certainly work towards a type of traveler and in a world and an industry that is sustainable and collaborative and mutually beneficial to everybody involved. And I think we’ll get there and I think we can work to get there. And I’m excited to be a part of this new movement of travelers who care. 

 

Kit Parks:  So Lauren you’ve got the Ridgeline Report. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And I’ll put links to all of Lauren’s website and blog on the show notes and on the website at adventuretravelshowpodcast.com/sustainability.  And so Lauren, can you tell us a little bit about the Ridgeline Report and whatever else you’re up to? 

 

Lauren Chu: (19:37)

Yeah, sure. So, The Ridgeline Report is my personal blog and on it I kind of talk about hiking and biking and camping in Canada and around the world. But I do try to kind of provide a lot of resources for people around sustainability and safety. So, you know, I’ve got a bit on leave no trace principles and how to apply them in reality and just bits on hiking etiquette and, and all that sort of good stuff. So that’s what’s there. 

 

Kit Parks: Well, I’ll be sure, like I said, I’ll be sure to link to all that. Lauren, I sure appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks so much.

 

Lauren Chu: (20:42)Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure. 

 

Kit Parks: Our thanks to Lauren for coming on the show. She’s given us a lot to think about and to chew on as we plan our future adventures. Some questions we need to ask ourselves: are we considering the impact that we’re making on both the local culture and the environment when we do our adventures and what are some of the things that we can do to have a positive impact and minimize our negative impacts? 

 

Kit Parks: (20:51)

I’m going to have tips both from Lauren and from other research on the website, adventuretravelshowpodcast.com/sustainability and of course newsletter subscribers will get the monthly, once a month newsletter that it’s going to come automatically. I would like to ask you, this is an important topic to please share this with with your fellow adventurers. It gives us all food for thought about where we stand and what kind of impact we’re going to have in the future. In fact, next up I’m going to explore a little bit deeper and we’re going to talk about manners. We’re going to talk about outdoor and wilderness etiquette. There’s lots of things that we’re doing right and there’s a lot of things we’d be not even realized that we’re doing wrong. So we’ll drill down into that so everybody understands what is considered good manners out in the wild, our public lands are getting crowded, shoot for that matter, the whole world is getting crowded and if we all just play nice together, just like our parents taught us, then these beautiful and fragile lands will continue to inspire folks for generations to come. We just all need to work together and to think before we do and consciously choose to have a positive impact, Lauren will be right that we will get there in the future. Again, lots to think about today. 

 

Kit Parks: (22:00)

Next up on the companion show podcast, the Active Travel Adventures podcast. We’re going to Acadia National Park and I’m super excited to share that with you. So that’ll be coming up next week and again, the following week we’ll be learning our manners in the wild and until then, thanks for listening. This is Kit Parks, Adventure On!